Issue 7752

Title
missing taxes for autoliquidation in account_fr
Priority
feature
Status
chatting
Nosy list
ced, risto3
Assigned to
Keywords
patch

Created on 2018-09-30.12:50:18 by risto3, last changed 26 months ago by risto3.

Files

File name Uploaded Type Details
tax_fr.diff risto3, 2018-12-26.14:29:27 text/plain view

Messages

Author: [hidden] (risto3)
Date: 2018-12-26.14:29:27
Here I add purchases for - CGI Article 293 B (franchise de payment VAT) which are immediately necessary.  

The tax rules seems to work okay, it just needs a means to be stipulated on the invoice as there is no possible way a client could know when a supplier has exceeded the franchise limits other than by the actual invoices.

I believe there is extra work probably necessary for sales by a company when benefitting of the VAT base franchise so it will probably be necessary to document as such.

I suppressed the previous draft patches.
Author: [hidden] (ced) Tryton committer Tryton translator
Date: 2018-12-18.23:21:27
Well, I think I will stop reviewing here. There is no clear ruling and each time new stuffs/exception popups and things become more and more complex.
Author: [hidden] (risto3)
Date: 2018-12-18.23:07:33
> So if it should always be enforced. It does not depend on the party and
> should not be a tax rule. But it is a tax to apply on the product.

Guess I'm a bit lost on the reasoning.  
It depends upon the nature of the services and on the situation between the two parties in the contract.
See the difference https://www.service-public.fr/professionnels-entreprises/vosdroits/F31983 between the applicable works and those works excluded.

Which is why, for me, the rule is applicable to all invoices of a particular project.

As to intermediate/reduced rate, for me the question is already answered, it is only normal tax rate which is involved... 

Only the prime contractor could possibly have an intermediate (or reduced) tax rate with the end client.

Which reminds me, there is still need for 
- CGI Article 293 B (franchise de payment VAT)

This is supplier party based, and limited, but which has an effect upon autoliquidation, as it suppresses it.  I guess it should only be a rule, at least for the customer side of things. Is there a way to enforce precedence?

For the supplier themselves, perhaps there should/could be the logic put in place to determine when the franchise is surpassed whereupon normal tax rules apply again (including autoliquidation).  I wonder it it should become a separate issue because of that.
Author: [hidden] (ced) Tryton committer Tryton translator
Date: 2018-12-18.19:57:06
On 2018-12-18 19:31, richard wrote:
> >> But there seems to be no means to currently specify a tax rule on the invoice as it is project specific.
> 
> >I do not think it is strictly project specific. As far as I see it is an
> >agreement between both parties. So the default tax rule is a valid
> >default behaviour.
> 
> Well, it is not strictly an agreement between the parties as it is the tax law!

So if it should always be enforced. It does not depend on the party and
should not be a tax rule. But it is a tax to apply on the product.

> As to intermediate and reduced tax rates, are there any real-world use-cases needing other rates in the French plan? 

I do not know but the question must be answered at some point.
Author: [hidden] (risto3)
Date: 2018-12-18.19:31:40
I added in this patch the tax rules as well as the 8,5% tax rate for French overseas departments.

>> But there seems to be no means to currently specify a tax rule on the invoice as it is project specific.

>I do not think it is strictly project specific. As far as I see it is an
>agreement between both parties. So the default tax rule is a valid
>default behaviour.

Well, it is not strictly an agreement between the parties as it is the tax law!

Tax rate depends on the nature and/or location of the goods/services delivered.
It is rather myopic to say it is only on the product.
Lefebvre, again, is your friend... as well as the standard government sites, such as
https://www.service-public.fr/professionnels-entreprises/vosdroits/N13445

As to intermediate and reduced tax rates, are there any real-world use-cases needing other rates in the French plan? 
I believe autoliquidation in construction works subcontracting only involves 'normal' rate... and like I mention above, I added 8,5% for DOM which was originally omitted. Thanks.

BTW I drop the 'account change' discussion as it is somewhat out of scope here.
Author: [hidden] (ced) Tryton committer Tryton translator
Date: 2018-12-17.10:32:06
On 2018-12-17 07:08, richard wrote:
> But there seems to be no means to currently specify a tax rule on the invoice as it is project specific.

I do not think it is strictly project specific. As far as I see it is an
agreement between both parties. So the default tax rule is a valid
default behaviour.

> There is probably need to add these, accompanied with a means to change not only the tax account but the invoice line account as well.
> Currently we set it on a specific account (suppliers 605xxx, clients 704xxx). Our accountant and auditor expect us, as is current usage, to maintain distinct accounts by tax rate for control and auditing purposes.

Changing the account is not strictly required and against the Tryton
design. This is a practice inherited from manual accounting which has no
need now as the data is stored on the move with the origin and the tax
lines.

> Since the measure went into place 1 jan 2014, the normal tax rate has not changed from 20%.

I mean the other rates: intermédiaire etc.

> Only first level contracts benefit an end customers right to reduced rate, autoliquidation involves only subcontracts (2nd level) so they are always normal rate.

The tax rate does not depend on the "level" but on type of product.
Author: [hidden] (risto3)
Date: 2018-12-17.07:08:22
ok, for completeness I will add a similar rule as for eu VAT autoliquidation.

But there seems to be no means to currently specify a tax rule on the invoice as it is project specific. There is probably need to add these, accompanied with a means to change not only the tax account but the invoice line account as well.
Currently we set it on a specific account (suppliers 605xxx, clients 704xxx). Our accountant and auditor expect us, as is current usage, to maintain distinct accounts by tax rate for control and auditing purposes.

Since the measure went into place 1 jan 2014, the normal tax rate has not changed from 20%.
Only first level contracts benefit an end customers right to reduced rate, autoliquidation involves only subcontracts (2nd level) so they are always normal rate.
Author: [hidden] (ced) Tryton committer Tryton translator
Date: 2018-12-16.23:39:29
For me, it is missing a tax rule that applies those taxes.
Also what about other tax rate than normal rate?
Author: [hidden] (risto3)
Date: 2018-12-16.19:30:05
Attached is a draft patchfile to tax_fr.xml.

It creates
"T.V.A. Vente Sous-traitance Travaux de Construction"	"T.V.A. Vente de services"	"Percentage"
"T.V.A. Achat Sous-traitance Travaux de Construction Taux Normal"	"T.V.A. Achat de services"	"None"

The sales tax is simple as there is only a base generated but no tax lines.
Nice thing about the description being "Autoliquidation" is that the minimal text is
automatically generated in the current invoice report. It would be nice to be able to add
a conditional in the report to detect the presence of "Autoliquidation" in order to add a
detail clause, but that's not considered urgent enough to treat at the moment.

The purchase tax has the hierarchy in place but only implements the current normal tax rate (20%),
generating a VAT deductible line and a VAT collectable line for the autoliquidation declaration.

It includes rudimentary credit notes updates to the tax codes, but given the reponse on discuss
https://discuss.tryton.org/t/vat-adjustment-report/962
there seems to be quite a bit of work to do in general in tax_fr.xml with respect to
legal treatment of credit/regularisations affecting certain prior declarations.

The crucial part needed immediately is the creation of the correct tax lines generated involving the general ledger.
Author: [hidden] (risto3)
Date: 2018-12-14.11:26:29
I believe, at least for the French taxes, it would be useful to have an assistant to help the administrator verify and correct the accounts used for various taxes (given the tedious navigation in these nested taxes).

That is, invariably, an installation has their proper accounting plan configured with specific accounts for collected and deductible VAT by tax rate, but these cannot be known beforehand in the provided templates.

Also, the role of the company (construction supplier/client) is more or less project specific to determine rules for autoliquidation.  Invoicing the same client for two distinct projects may be subject to autoliquidation in one but not the other.
(example the former is perhaps as a subcontractor on a larger project, but the latter is directly for the client).
(There are even some special cases where some activities are excluded from any autoliquidation, like engineering or maintenance)

Therefore, there should be a mechanism to apply the autoliquidation tax group [minimally] while entering the invoice to all or some of the lines.



Which brings up another point, for example, a case with a client invoice with autoliquidation, 
though the VAT lines are suppressed (for the client to deal with), the actual accounts used must change.

For example, if typically an invoice line initially has
"Line"	""	"704103 - Travaux de catégorie (ou activité) A 20,0%"	"1.00"	""	"1,000.0000"	"( 1 )"	"1,000.00"

it should become
"Line"	""	"704106 - Travaux autoliquidation"	"1.00"	""	"1,000.0000"	"( 0 )"	"1,000.00"

Furthermore, the client account changes from
411114 - Clients - Ventes de biens ou de prestations de services à 20,0%
or 
412104 - Clients – Créances garanties par paiement direct @ 20,0%

to 
411116 Clients - Ventes de biens ou de prestations de services (autoliquidée)
or
412106 - Clients – Créances garanties par paiement direct (autoliquidée)

Actually, the problem already exists as the same logic and needs hold for reduced rate taxes (5,5% or 10%) as they are
also project specific and must use different accounts with the appropriate tax rate.

So it appears there could also be an assistant to help apply in mass these corrected elements.
Author: [hidden] (risto3)
Date: 2018-12-14.10:30:18
Author: [hidden] (risto3)
Date: 2018-09-30.17:33:43
well, I guess it was, here: https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tryton-fr/5dbebdf0-fa8a-b009-4813-df51ccf8ee6b%40free.fr
seems it was in another discussion too, but I can't seem to find my tag.
Author: [hidden] (ced) Tryton committer Tryton translator
Date: 2018-09-30.14:14:22
Patch is welcomed but it is too late for feature request for 5.0
Author: [hidden] (risto3)
Date: 2018-09-30.12:50:18
There are still at least two taxe cases missing in account_fr:
- CGI Article 293 B (franchise de payment VAT)
- CGI, ann. II, art. 242 nonies A  (autoliquidation VAT for construction subcontractors)

Please update for V5
History
Date User Action Args
2018-12-26 14:29:28risto3setfiles: + tax_fr.diff
messages: + msg45505
2018-12-26 14:17:02risto3setfiles: - tax_fr-credit-1.diff
2018-12-18 23:21:28cedsetmessages: + msg45392
2018-12-18 23:07:33risto3setmessages: + msg45391
2018-12-18 19:57:06cedsetmessages: + msg45390
2018-12-18 19:37:51risto3setfiles: - tax_fr-credit.diff
2018-12-18 19:31:41risto3setfiles: + tax_fr-credit-1.diff
messages: + msg45389
2018-12-17 10:32:06cedsetmessages: + msg45337
2018-12-17 07:08:23risto3setmessages: + msg45336
2018-12-16 23:39:29cedsetmessages: + msg45333

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